Everyone gets that quote wrong. It's not, "God will not be mocked, so all you mockers better watch out bcs he's gonna smite you." That's not what it says, and not what it means.
"Be not deceived; God IS not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
It's a statement about the nature of God and our existence in relationship with him. The context is important. In Galatians 6:7-8, Paul is speaking about sowing and reaping, a metaphor for the inevitable consequences of one’s actions: "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
"God IS not mocked" no matter how much mocking you think you're doing; it just comes whipping back in your own face - not because of any smiting or vengefulness by a tetchy and ill-tempered God who takes offence personally. It's about the inevitability of consequences, what happens when you try to defy the created order of reality; it's stamping on a rake. You cannot trick God or manipulate spiritual realities by your actions or intentions.
Greek word used here for “mocked” (μυκτηρίζεται, myktērizetai) literally means "to turn up the nose at" or "to sneer at." It has nothing to do with a vengeful deity; it's about how attempting to live contrary to God’s design is ultimately pointless. You might sneer at God’s law, but you can’t change the natural and moral order that God has established. Trying to do so only damages the person trying it. God can't be hurt by anything we do.
Given all that understanding, is it not obvious that God IS mocked all the time and we DON’T see people reaping the results of that?
Where are the consequences?
I understand you may think this is misquoting or misunderstanding the text, but the question is: does that text comport with reality?
Usually when someone is talking about the “order of reality” they’re talking about the teleology, what things are ordered “towards”, where they are moving from privation to fulfillment. The observed nature of the universe clashes with teleology because entropy and destruction are the actual end of all things we see.
No, you’re misunderstanding. No one expects visible smiting but why isn’t there any obvious consequences to defying the perceived order? Why are the mockers blessed? Why are the holy harmed? Even the Bible asks this in Isaiah 57 for example.
You’re indicating the Bible says that the consequences still happen but we don’t know how or when. That’s just a divine “trust me bro”
You’re appealing to an order of nature that is contrary to observation. Paul is attempting to do the same thing you are: communicate that the consequences will occur. Somehow, some time.
But that generation DID pass away before ANY of these things happened.
The point isn’t to argue over the sense of the words, the question is why do we think that they are at all true? You can use the same words to justify both readings and they lead to opposite conclusions. So why does it even matter?
So, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" is what you're asking. The Problem of Evil. If God is good, why does He allow human evil?
I believe there has been some writing on this by the saints. Maybe look it up.
No, that's not what either Paul or I are saying. God IS not mocked, because of His nature. The mockers aren't doing anything to God, not disproving His nature or His law; their attempts don't actually affect anything.
No - why is there no evidence of “natures”, “substances”, and teleology?
God is not mocked - yes he is. People mock him all the time. And there’s no nature or law to be disproven or affected so the idea that he remains steadfast is just bare assertion.
Or to put it another way, I 100% get what you’re saying and I agree: God is mocked and it doesn’t affect him because of his nature: he doesn’t exist. It’s in the nature of things that don’t exist to not change or be affected by anything.
The attempts of mockers don’t actually affect anything, because there’s nothing to affect. Works the same as prayer, actually.
It’s why God is perfectly simple, with no division, no change, no limits; why he is invisible, eternal. Those are all the properties of things that don’t exist.
What a boring notion; using many words to say nothing. Why did Paul even bother?
“When you mock God nothing happens”
Is what Paul and you are saying. I agree. When you mock God nothing happens, due to his nature (not existing). It’s the atheist position and I’m surprised you agree!
Nice try on the motte and bailey, if the bailey (there are consequences to mocking God) fails, fall back to the motte (God isn’t affected by mockery). Unfortunately you need to make sure your motte is defensible first. In this case, it’s perfectly agreeable though because it is devoid of any useful meaning.
If you’re an atheist, why are you even bothering to discuss this? if God “doesn’t exist” you’re just being a troll, and have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
So we are disappointed that God didn't rain down fire & brimstone when God was mocked? He who was reviled did not revile...1 Peter 2:23
Maybe one day we will learn the Way, the Truth and the Life (or is it light - I always get those mixed up) and I write "we", because we are all in this together, whether we like it or not.
He doesn’t rain down fire & brimstone when he’s mocked. He doesn’t help people who pray to him. He only does things that are indistinguishable from random chance. Either God is a huge fan of stochastics or he’s indiscernible from noise.
I think it’s healthy to step away and look at it objectively. The normal churched response is for the petitioner to blame themselves for praying “wrong” - it’s a pathway to religious OCD.
Indeed. When the Samaritans would not allow Jesus and the Apostles to pass through their territory, James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven to destroy them (Luke 9:54). Jesus rebuked them and He and the Apostles went another way.
Do we imagine there to be some great virtue in this restraint? Will God truly be merciful to those of us whose faith was shattered on the sharp edged scandals of this pontificate, which seem to disprove everything we’ve ever been taught?
I’m so tired of the excuses we make for a God who never holds up his end of the bargain.
Why are you willing to give a pass to a man who not only tried to redefine the faith in his own image but actively taught sin? If you don't believe that, read the following piece I wrote:
With all due respect, people who think as you do use "Christian charity" as an excuse *not* to confront evil. And Francis was evil. This is why the Catholic Church has become a moral cesspool, and I'm not just talking about clerical sex abuse. I'm talking about supporting the perpetrators of evil over the victims of evil. I'm talking about ignoring the victims of crime (such as Laken Riley) committed by illegal migrants for the sake of turning immigrants into a protected class to promote the church's political agenda. I'm talking about disregarding murder victims and their families for the sake of promoting JPII's unilateral, arbitrary teaching on capital punishment for murder (read this article I wrote to find out what I'm talking about: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3460-killing-capital-punishment-how-pope-john-paul-set-precedent-for-pope-francis).
How does any of this nonsense promote the "common good" that Catholic prelates and intellectuals love to talk about?
No, it's not. It's a serious question I directed to Steve. I have no idea who has what kind of knowledge in these chat rooms.
The Book of Revelation shows God "taking care of business" in the tail end of the "last days" (which we've been in since Pentecost). That note comes through loud and clear regardless of how the book's images can be interpreted. Why does he wait so long? Perhaps because he to save as many as he can. At any rate, God's arm is not short, as he told Moses.
In the Shi'ur Qomah we find out God’s hand is literally 140 million miles long, so that’s a good point. His whole arm is twice the length of the distance between his shoulders, and it’s 888 million miles long. It’s also got a name: GBRHZZYA, AKBVY. Useful for theurgy if you need to use his arm.
Maimonides had to dedicate a whole “guide to the perplexed” to handle that.
Of course that’s not actually that big in the scheme of things, his hand is only about half an astronomical unit, his arm is 10 AU. God is pretty small relative to the universe.
Now if we exclude hekhalot literature, we should note that God’s arm not being short is talking about what is out of his reach, not how he measures time. He’s not taking forever because he’s slow to move his massive arm.
Everyone gets that quote wrong. It's not, "God will not be mocked, so all you mockers better watch out bcs he's gonna smite you." That's not what it says, and not what it means.
"Be not deceived; God IS not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
It's a statement about the nature of God and our existence in relationship with him. The context is important. In Galatians 6:7-8, Paul is speaking about sowing and reaping, a metaphor for the inevitable consequences of one’s actions: "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
"God IS not mocked" no matter how much mocking you think you're doing; it just comes whipping back in your own face - not because of any smiting or vengefulness by a tetchy and ill-tempered God who takes offence personally. It's about the inevitability of consequences, what happens when you try to defy the created order of reality; it's stamping on a rake. You cannot trick God or manipulate spiritual realities by your actions or intentions.
Greek word used here for “mocked” (μυκτηρίζεται, myktērizetai) literally means "to turn up the nose at" or "to sneer at." It has nothing to do with a vengeful deity; it's about how attempting to live contrary to God’s design is ultimately pointless. You might sneer at God’s law, but you can’t change the natural and moral order that God has established. Trying to do so only damages the person trying it. God can't be hurt by anything we do.
Given all that understanding, is it not obvious that God IS mocked all the time and we DON’T see people reaping the results of that?
Where are the consequences?
I understand you may think this is misquoting or misunderstanding the text, but the question is: does that text comport with reality?
Usually when someone is talking about the “order of reality” they’re talking about the teleology, what things are ordered “towards”, where they are moving from privation to fulfillment. The observed nature of the universe clashes with teleology because entropy and destruction are the actual end of all things we see.
So you didn't pay the slightest attention to anything I wrote. "Ok, but why isn't God smiting the mockers?"
No, you’re misunderstanding. No one expects visible smiting but why isn’t there any obvious consequences to defying the perceived order? Why are the mockers blessed? Why are the holy harmed? Even the Bible asks this in Isaiah 57 for example.
You’re indicating the Bible says that the consequences still happen but we don’t know how or when. That’s just a divine “trust me bro”
You’re appealing to an order of nature that is contrary to observation. Paul is attempting to do the same thing you are: communicate that the consequences will occur. Somehow, some time.
But that generation DID pass away before ANY of these things happened.
The point isn’t to argue over the sense of the words, the question is why do we think that they are at all true? You can use the same words to justify both readings and they lead to opposite conclusions. So why does it even matter?
So, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" is what you're asking. The Problem of Evil. If God is good, why does He allow human evil?
I believe there has been some writing on this by the saints. Maybe look it up.
No, that's not what either Paul or I are saying. God IS not mocked, because of His nature. The mockers aren't doing anything to God, not disproving His nature or His law; their attempts don't actually affect anything.
So reductive.
No - why is there no evidence of “natures”, “substances”, and teleology?
God is not mocked - yes he is. People mock him all the time. And there’s no nature or law to be disproven or affected so the idea that he remains steadfast is just bare assertion.
Or to put it another way, I 100% get what you’re saying and I agree: God is mocked and it doesn’t affect him because of his nature: he doesn’t exist. It’s in the nature of things that don’t exist to not change or be affected by anything.
The attempts of mockers don’t actually affect anything, because there’s nothing to affect. Works the same as prayer, actually.
It’s why God is perfectly simple, with no division, no change, no limits; why he is invisible, eternal. Those are all the properties of things that don’t exist.
What a boring notion; using many words to say nothing. Why did Paul even bother?
“When you mock God nothing happens”
Is what Paul and you are saying. I agree. When you mock God nothing happens, due to his nature (not existing). It’s the atheist position and I’m surprised you agree!
Nice try on the motte and bailey, if the bailey (there are consequences to mocking God) fails, fall back to the motte (God isn’t affected by mockery). Unfortunately you need to make sure your motte is defensible first. In this case, it’s perfectly agreeable though because it is devoid of any useful meaning.
If you’re an atheist, why are you even bothering to discuss this? if God “doesn’t exist” you’re just being a troll, and have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
So we are disappointed that God didn't rain down fire & brimstone when God was mocked? He who was reviled did not revile...1 Peter 2:23
Maybe one day we will learn the Way, the Truth and the Life (or is it light - I always get those mixed up) and I write "we", because we are all in this together, whether we like it or not.
He doesn’t rain down fire & brimstone when he’s mocked. He doesn’t help people who pray to him. He only does things that are indistinguishable from random chance. Either God is a huge fan of stochastics or he’s indiscernible from noise.
I think it’s healthy to step away and look at it objectively. The normal churched response is for the petitioner to blame themselves for praying “wrong” - it’s a pathway to religious OCD.
This. 100%
It might not necessarily be religious OCD, but it’s most definitely religious codependency.
Indeed. When the Samaritans would not allow Jesus and the Apostles to pass through their territory, James and John wanted to call down fire from heaven to destroy them (Luke 9:54). Jesus rebuked them and He and the Apostles went another way.
Do we imagine there to be some great virtue in this restraint? Will God truly be merciful to those of us whose faith was shattered on the sharp edged scandals of this pontificate, which seem to disprove everything we’ve ever been taught?
I’m so tired of the excuses we make for a God who never holds up his end of the bargain.
So much hatred! Lack of Christian charity! Why do you hate Pope Francis so much?
Why are you willing to give a pass to a man who not only tried to redefine the faith in his own image but actively taught sin? If you don't believe that, read the following piece I wrote:
https://stream.org/queering-the-catholic-church/
With all due respect, people who think as you do use "Christian charity" as an excuse *not* to confront evil. And Francis was evil. This is why the Catholic Church has become a moral cesspool, and I'm not just talking about clerical sex abuse. I'm talking about supporting the perpetrators of evil over the victims of evil. I'm talking about ignoring the victims of crime (such as Laken Riley) committed by illegal migrants for the sake of turning immigrants into a protected class to promote the church's political agenda. I'm talking about disregarding murder victims and their families for the sake of promoting JPII's unilateral, arbitrary teaching on capital punishment for murder (read this article I wrote to find out what I'm talking about: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/3460-killing-capital-punishment-how-pope-john-paul-set-precedent-for-pope-francis).
How does any of this nonsense promote the "common good" that Catholic prelates and intellectuals love to talk about?
All I can say is, read the book of Revelation.
Do you seriously believe anyone who reads this post hasn’t read Revelation? That’s mighty presumptive.
No, it's not. It's a serious question I directed to Steve. I have no idea who has what kind of knowledge in these chat rooms.
The Book of Revelation shows God "taking care of business" in the tail end of the "last days" (which we've been in since Pentecost). That note comes through loud and clear regardless of how the book's images can be interpreted. Why does he wait so long? Perhaps because he to save as many as he can. At any rate, God's arm is not short, as he told Moses.
In the Shi'ur Qomah we find out God’s hand is literally 140 million miles long, so that’s a good point. His whole arm is twice the length of the distance between his shoulders, and it’s 888 million miles long. It’s also got a name: GBRHZZYA, AKBVY. Useful for theurgy if you need to use his arm.
Maimonides had to dedicate a whole “guide to the perplexed” to handle that.
Of course that’s not actually that big in the scheme of things, his hand is only about half an astronomical unit, his arm is 10 AU. God is pretty small relative to the universe.
Now if we exclude hekhalot literature, we should note that God’s arm not being short is talking about what is out of his reach, not how he measures time. He’s not taking forever because he’s slow to move his massive arm.
So much hatred! Lack of Christian charity! Why do you hate Pope Francis so much?