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ComfyOldShoe's avatar

No one here seems to have addressed the subject of intra-sexual competition tactics among women.

Fertility and male-female relations are certainly worthy topics. But I was stricken by recognition of what I’ve experienced and observed. Yes, this is real, and vicious in a way that men can’t readily understand. Women too will deny it. If you know one who’ll discuss it, listen.

Your haircut looks great (marine cut on a 20-something woman.)

Your back would feel better if you had breast-reduction surgery. (This was possibly true but no regard to risks/actual outcomes was given. Still better in my opinion to teach posture, core strengthening exercises, and better bra-buying options)

So many more examples, and not recent ones.

Women can grow to be wary of advice from friends, even mothers, sisters, etc. And friendships with men may distort things too, but it does start with female-female influences. Thank you for highlighting this. Lord, have mercy.

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TT's avatar
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so what's the fix to this? does it include still allowing women to be educated, pursue their own interests alongside family and children, and be enfranchised? What always gets me about these kinds of massive generalizations about all women is that it provides an easy 'key' that boils down to a basic assumption ("Women, without even knowing it, want other women to have less children in order to be more sexually dominant"). That seems pretty easy compared with the more challenging idea that perhaps multiple ideas are true at the same time

1) women still desire longterm commitments and children (basic evolutionary biology),

2) traditional structures were, in fact, not ideal for women ((lack of education, being treated as property, no enfranchisement) - you as someone who experienced infantilization at the hands of a traditional religious institution, can perhaps relate to this) even if they prioritized reproduction- women thriving is not simply the same thing as women having children, though they are related,

3) women accessed higher education for the first time in the early to mid-twentieth century- incredibly recently - so workplaces are still largely geared towards able-bodied neurotypical men (i don't mean this in any identity politics kind of way and am not implying a value judgement, just as literal descriptors- please take them as such) and male reproduction. Some of the effects of this obvious history in workplaces are that: independence is one of the highest values, there is little place for taking time off or flexible scheduling (this is slowly changing, even if most office jobs could fairly easily be done from home or more flexibly), reproduction (understood only but wrongly as having sex) takes no time and effort in comparison to work (although it should), and work is valued as the primary source of meaning in one's life. All of these factors (and probably others I am not thinking of) make it difficult for women to be 'in the world' and also have children, or as many children as in the past. Not to mention the lack of community supports, the skyrocketing cost of education, and the skyrocketing cost of housing (and everything else). And women don't want to relinquish access to higher education, nor should they.

4) the framing of 'the battle of the sexes' as an adversarial relationship between women and men, rather than a deeper understanding that men and women's deepest desires are to love each other as equals, reduces the conflict to a war metaphor where peace will only be reached when one side somehow dominates or subdues the other and 'wins'. I would argue that this is an unhelpful framing- 'winning' would look like dealing with the complex reality that women AND MEN want children and families BUT ALSO women still wish for higher education and a life including the home but also outside the home (surely, you can see this in your own wife), AND that such a life requires different societal priorities than we currently have (embracing dependence and interdependence as normal rather than shameful, a reduction in incredibly high costs for basic needs such as education, housing and health care, the elimination of absurd levels of debt as normal in our economy (which severely impedes the ability to have children), flexibility and generous parental leave for both men and women at work, a focus on outcomes rather than time-in-office in workplaces, a public acknowledgement that both men and women need help, resources and support in order to value their families as much as (though it should be more than) their work). Such accommodations would benefit everyone, but in their absence, it is not surprising that women are finding it difficult to have as many children as in the past (though i would argue there is no 'non-feminist' golden age to return to -just different problems, equally severe).

I am not proposing a political system or anything like that, but I am trying to re-ground the conversation outside of broad generalizations and assumptions about some kind of unconscious sinister nature in women and in the extremely obvious and observable social constraints that everyone (not just women) is living under right now. We are in this together, and we are not each other's enemies, even though that might be an easy way to make sense of the world. I could just as easily make an unsubstantiated assertion that men's equation of sex with domination and social hierarchy has led to pointlessly competitive institutional structures in every domain of life that are focused so much on finding the best, richest, strongest and brightest, that everyone else gets thrown to the wayside. Full disclosure: I don't actually believe that; a huge generalization about the nature of all men (just like all women) reveals as much as it conceals.

Broad black-and-white 'secret key' assertions may feel like a big insight that decodes the whole world but 1) what assumptions back them up and do those hold up? and 2) what is the outcome being implied or proposed by the assertion- what ought you to DO on the basis of it? I find these questions helpful in evaluating the worth of such assertions - they may be similarly helpful to you, or not.

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