A well written look at a very important subject. I am going through a similar, though not identical journey. It seems like a lot of people are. There's a definite change of climate in the "noosphere".
Plato was the first major Ancient Greek thinker to influence me, and he continues to have preeminence in my thinking over Aristotle. However, the Cave made most sense to me in light (pun) of the Forms. That relationship is what I see in most reading I do. The prisoner is only part of the meaning. Combined with the fullness of Plato’s Forms, the allegory leads to a more optimistic and universally applicable understanding, in my view. I really enjoyed your unique perspective. I would encourage bookmarking the prisoner dilemma and contemplating Plato’s Forms with it to see if that helps in getting to your answer. I love starting where you did with Plato.
I can definitely see the parallels between the allegory of the cave, and Christianity, more specifically, the Catholic Church. I have finally escaped the cave, and what’s really scary is that it’s really hard to tell most of the “prisoners“ that I know that I have escaped for fear of the metaphorical “violence,” I might be subject to.
I thought it was particularly interesting when you said “ But it’s so critical to get your mind right and know what you believe, instead of always being in the position of trying to force yourself to find ways to accept things they tell you you have to believe.”
I know when, raising my children, there were many circumstances where my intuition and my lived experience were telling me to guide them in a direction that was not in keeping with the puppets on the wall… but the prisoners around me somehow kept me forcing myself to advise/guide/indoctrinate my children that the puppets were real. Now that I have escaped the cave (the Catholic Church), and my children are now adults, we have had some of the most gratifying and authentic conversations about the realities of life outside the cave. I am a better mom and we are a stronger family because of it. I can’t now “unsee” that it really all was just shadows.
Funny enough, it was one of my daughters who first pointed out to me the parallels between the allegory of the cave, and our prior faith. I am grateful for her, and I am grateful that I happened upon your writings many months ago. You always make me contemplate things in fresh ways, and I love that! So thank you, Steve.
A good read, though my first encounter with the Cave Allegory was during my atheist years, with its significance striking me more after my journey in the opposite direction, going from the 2D-esque world of materialism toward a broader reality that encompassed the spiritual—both the World of Facts and the World of Values unfolding, making my prior experience feel narrow.
Were I still in the old camp, I don’t know that I would care whether puppet masters were manipulating myself or others, as I’d likely reason that both the puppets and the masters share the same inconsequential fate.
I hope God is infinitely more merciful than what has been conveyed by the vast majority of Christians down the centuries. I don't have the heart to tell people they deserve to suffer eternal torment because they failed to believe in unverifiable claims, or that they would not accept some presuppositions. That just can't be the case, and you're right, it's the most frightening and embarrassing part of the faith.
Note: Updated the quotes from Weinstein and added timestamped video links, for those interested in chasing those particular rabbit holes.
A well written look at a very important subject. I am going through a similar, though not identical journey. It seems like a lot of people are. There's a definite change of climate in the "noosphere".
As always, well done, my brother.
Plato was the first major Ancient Greek thinker to influence me, and he continues to have preeminence in my thinking over Aristotle. However, the Cave made most sense to me in light (pun) of the Forms. That relationship is what I see in most reading I do. The prisoner is only part of the meaning. Combined with the fullness of Plato’s Forms, the allegory leads to a more optimistic and universally applicable understanding, in my view. I really enjoyed your unique perspective. I would encourage bookmarking the prisoner dilemma and contemplating Plato’s Forms with it to see if that helps in getting to your answer. I love starting where you did with Plato.
I can definitely see the parallels between the allegory of the cave, and Christianity, more specifically, the Catholic Church. I have finally escaped the cave, and what’s really scary is that it’s really hard to tell most of the “prisoners“ that I know that I have escaped for fear of the metaphorical “violence,” I might be subject to.
I thought it was particularly interesting when you said “ But it’s so critical to get your mind right and know what you believe, instead of always being in the position of trying to force yourself to find ways to accept things they tell you you have to believe.”
I know when, raising my children, there were many circumstances where my intuition and my lived experience were telling me to guide them in a direction that was not in keeping with the puppets on the wall… but the prisoners around me somehow kept me forcing myself to advise/guide/indoctrinate my children that the puppets were real. Now that I have escaped the cave (the Catholic Church), and my children are now adults, we have had some of the most gratifying and authentic conversations about the realities of life outside the cave. I am a better mom and we are a stronger family because of it. I can’t now “unsee” that it really all was just shadows.
Funny enough, it was one of my daughters who first pointed out to me the parallels between the allegory of the cave, and our prior faith. I am grateful for her, and I am grateful that I happened upon your writings many months ago. You always make me contemplate things in fresh ways, and I love that! So thank you, Steve.
A good read, though my first encounter with the Cave Allegory was during my atheist years, with its significance striking me more after my journey in the opposite direction, going from the 2D-esque world of materialism toward a broader reality that encompassed the spiritual—both the World of Facts and the World of Values unfolding, making my prior experience feel narrow.
Were I still in the old camp, I don’t know that I would care whether puppet masters were manipulating myself or others, as I’d likely reason that both the puppets and the masters share the same inconsequential fate.
I hope God is infinitely more merciful than what has been conveyed by the vast majority of Christians down the centuries. I don't have the heart to tell people they deserve to suffer eternal torment because they failed to believe in unverifiable claims, or that they would not accept some presuppositions. That just can't be the case, and you're right, it's the most frightening and embarrassing part of the faith.
Your comments are always fascinating, and should probably be a Substack in themselves!