I just have to say, Steve, how much certain parts of your post resonate with me.
Having long ago become so weary and disgusted with the non-stop banter of numerous factions within the Catholic Church, pontificating on a daily basis regarding the teachings if the Catholic Faith, I have come to believe that unless souls become as little children, they don't stand a snow balls chance in Hell.
All these decades of doctrinal horror....on all sides; the rending of garments from every direction is indicative of the fact.....yes, a fact...that the means to the end has become the end in itself.
Souls have fallen out of love for the Divine,; simple childlike trust and love GONE.
God and His undying love for His creatures, only asking to be loved in return has been usurped by words....opinions....volumes of rules which continue to be discussed and debated ad nauseam until the very life of a soul is crushed.
The Catholic Faith is the means to the end. It's a travesty beyond words what mankind has managed to do to It.
This is a beautiful post, and for my money, the most profound you have written -- anyway in the last year or two. (No offense to your others!) I am delighted to hear that you are coming open, at least ever so slightly, to a view of God as you outline here; and a view of doctrine. It seems practical and balanced. And beautiful. And liveable.
I struggle too. I was lying awake in bed recently and remembered what God said when He was a human. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He said other things too, but He said that. It doesn't sound very much like the God your mother was talking about.
The rest of this comment, I type with some fear and trembling, because it's the type of thing I usually try not to talk about among Roman Catholics. I'm a Protestant, but I'm not trying to convert people out of their tradition, and it seems rude to share some of these thoughts in another's house (as it were). You brought up some things of great relevance to that everlasting and weary discussion, and I hope you'll forgive my sharing the resonance they have from my perspective.
(1) The things you mention are primary reasons why I could not ever be a Roman Catholic. Yes, I have actual substantive problems and critiques of this or that doctrine, but there's something to be said for submission. But to walk in, head held high, and join an institution that very overtly says I must affirm things that I very strongly believe to be false? I don't see how to be an honest human creature and do it. Even without my head held high, for that matter.
That's not to gainsay the many beautiful things about the Roman Catholic Church or (far more) Roman Catholic believers themselves.
(2) It seems to me that one who truly believes the Roman Catholic Church is infallible will delight in the proliferation of new dogmas. Every new dogma is a new opportunity to know the truth for certain, and that is something humans love. I study math, and I don't find the proof of a new theorem to be an intellectual problem for me -- it's great to learn something that I didn't know before. It doesn't fill me with doubt and distress.
No, the people for whom it is a stumbling block are those -- certainly like me, perhaps like you -- who really don't believe that it is infallible. Then every new dogma has, quite simply, the prospect of another gulf destroying reunion between me and my brothers. Another reason why trying to join the Roman Church *would* fill me with doubt and distress. And the cause is obvious: whereas I believe that the deliverances of mathematical reason actually do give truth, I do *not* believe that about the deliverances of the Roman Catholic Church. And trying to force yourself to accept as true something you don't actually accept as true (or as infallible something you don't believe is infallible) -- well, that's a recipe for misery.
Roman Catholic (theological) conservatives would say I simply lack faith. As regards the Roman Church, they're quite right. I do. As regards God and Christ, thank God I do not. It can all get confusing and distressing at times, but I have come to think He wants us fighting through it to His love and beauty, and finding faith in Him in any event.
Anyway, the point is simply -- it seems to me to go to the essence of the Roman Church's traditional claims about herself whether her declaring new dogmas is good, or is not. But others may disagree. In any event, it most certainly does not go to the essence of the truth of Christ. And your point about stumbling blocks seems very powerful to me.
Please don't take this to be some kind of full-throated ra-ra defense of Protestantism. There's obviously much to criticize. Mencken's point has force. Mencken also did elsewhere say some very nice things about J. Gresham Machen -- even if he was a Presbyterian pastor. I think there's a little more to be said for preaching than he allows, when it doesn't pretend to come with the voice of God. But there is much, too, to be said for beauty in worship.
I hope I have not been too impertinent. I will now try to return to being a polite guest. I am delighted to read of recent developments.
Great comment, SMK. Thanks. Much to consider here. I think we're largely on the same page, I just have never found Christianity outside of Catholicism or Orthodoxy particularly appealing. But for now I'm just open to being led to what Lewis called Mere Christianity. Even that will take some time, I expect, if it happens at all.
I wasn't trying to talk you out of Catholicism, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was. It's hard to imagine you as something else, even just from what I've read of you. It just seemed relevant to agree with some of your points from across the water, as it were.
I think it's different when you're born into it. Then it's your church, and staying in it while not believing all its dogmas doesn't necessarily seem to involve one in the same issues. I'm speaking just from what I've observed in friends and others. It's never seemed urgent to me to try to talk someone out of the Catholic church who has faith in Jesus and is following him and is largely untroubled by whatever points in their theoretical system or practice I might have questions about.
I guess what I *would* say is just to remind that the rest of Christendom is there as a release valve (if you will). The Roman Catholic who is stumbling specifically over a specifically Roman Catholic dogma is someone whom I'll gently remind of the existence of other parts of the Christian world, in case that is the way forward for their faith.
But I don't think that mainly applies to you. I think your main questions are other and more central. If answering them or healing takes you to a type of Roman Catholicism where dogma is less of a tyrant in your mind*, that's wonderful.
I think I can understand why someone who had grown up in the richness of Catholicism (or Orthodoxy) would find other expressions too thin.
Incidentally, and a propos of none of this, but of your post: if you haven't read Lewis's "Problem of Pain," or haven't read it recently, I think it has some very beautiful passages about God's love. For whenever you're in the mood, if at all.
You'll continue to have my prayer, as a brother.
*Dogma as a tyrant in the mind happens in Protestantism, too.
(Edit: Of course, we'd probably all agree that some dogmas are necessary. I'm not referring to that as a tyrant, or trying to short-circuit difficult discussions about which are and which aren't.)
Hey Steve, with daylight "savings" time upon us, I have an extra hour to peruse stuff I've missed over the past couple of years. (ha) I was looking for something else, but came across this and thought of you. It helped me too.
I agree that requiring belief in some dogmas is just arbitrary. A prime example of this is the dogma of the Assumption. Even the most conservative and orthodox of Catholic sources state that this belief doesn't even enter the record of Catholic thought until the 4th century. So if this belief is supposedly required for salvation, then how come the Christians of the first 300 years of the faith were fine without it?
“The point is, there were way too many credible people in my life and in the Church saying that God is scary and you’d better follow the rules or he’s going to open up a can of whoop-ass on you, and I believed it.“
You just described the entire rationale for hagiographic intercession, especially Marian intercession.
You also just described the reason for the inherent lack of any relationship with Jesus (outside of the Eucharist) that Catholics have. If Jesus is God and God is scary, what does that make Jesus?
This is great Steve, I’ve learned a lot from Orthodoxy’s way of just surrendering to God in prayer, we’re not gonna have all the answers, when you accept that, it becomes a feature of life and not a bug, I ended up hating the show Ted Lasso, but the line in season 1 is truly great, “Be curious, not judgmental”
"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and, in all things, charity" - often misattributed to John Wesley, but a common mantra in Methodism
So much wisdom in your post. I've personally taken the approach that I can get no closer to Him in truth than Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and so I'm willing to have my doubts that I pursue in good faith and still consider myself in good standing. Probably not what a "good" Catholic should do, but I trust (like you said in your post) that He understands.
I'm pushing 60 and have been Catholic now for 20 years. I never found any of the commandments very onerous, other than the requirement for an annulment to get married again, which was no fun (the annulment process, I mean!). As far as the defined dogmas go, maybe Mary really is sinless and was assumed into Heaven. I certainly cannot prove it, but if the Church says so, I don't have a problem with just assuming that it's true and not spending lots of time worrying about it. At the beginning, I did not understand the prohibition against contraception, but I accepted it, and as time went on, I understood it more and more. I would like to better understand the "outside the Church, no salvation" teaching; that seems to have some subtleties for wrapping one's head around. I'm very happy to have defined dogmas and precepts; it sure beats any of the Protestant churches, and even the Orthodox are hopelessly confused when it comes to divorce and remarriage. If I have slipped up and forgotten to confess it, well, I'll just have to commend myself to God's mercy and hope for the best. He is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful, which none of us can fully understand. If I do end up in Hell, I suppose God will have a really good reason for letting me go there. So good luck with your journey; remember God is both just and merciful.
When I was reading your thoughts…this verse was brought to me by Holy Spirit.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
To increase your faith and understanding, spend large amounts of time in God’s Word. The gospels, New Testament epistles, and the book of Acts are written to Christians-which includes us, as Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I do not sweat the fine print. I don't think we are required to believe in much Marian doctrine to be in the saved. Do you believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit? I'd say that is important because without that, how could Jesus be true God and true man? The other Marian doctrines I'd say I take on faith, but they are not essential to salvation and they dont bother me. As a 3rd order Carmelite, i am devoted to Our Lady. I try to say at least part of a rosary every day. I think she's a great Mother to us and a friend. Christ performed the first miracle at Cana because His Mother asked. He didnt want to do it. This signalled two things: the importance of marriage and the fact that Jesus has a soft spot in His heart for His Mother. So we can ask the Mother of God, and the saints, and the angels to intercede with God on our behalf. Can we ask God directly for help? Yes. We should also do direct appeals to God for help and guidance each day. Here's what I think is essential to salvation: one must believe that Jesus Christ is true God, true man, died to save us from eternal damnation. We have fo believe He rose from the dead and will return and judge the living and the dead. Read the Nicene Creed--thats whats required for salvation. Believing the Nicene creed and then obeying the ten commandments. If we love Him, we will love the Father as well. And if we love Jesus and the Father, they will come and make their home with us. If we love Him, we will try to obey the ten commandments and avoid the seven deadly sins. We will try to help and serve others. I don't find God to be mean, threatening and angry. I find God to be loving, kind, patient, pure, merciful, and funny. Yes, God knows how to hit one's funny bone. Does God punish us? Yes, but He has a very long fuse and gives many warnings. I like Prots too. But I like and believe the Catholic faith more. I love the Virgin Mother, angels and saints. In my estimation, most (say 80%) go to Purgatory, which is custom made reform school. Purgatory can start on earth. If you are suffering, offer it up for your own sins and the suffering souls in Purgatory. Do I believe in He'll. Yes, Christ spoke at length on Hell. So I try to be perfect, as God advised. But I know I cannot be perfect. That's okay because trying to be perfect hopefully will keep me out of Hades. Google will not let me write "hell." Try reading the New Testament and the saints. Start practicing the faith again. NOVUS Ordo is okay. That's really Jesus Christ is the Eucharist. I do not like the current persecution of Trads and contemplatives from the top of RCC. Keep trying everyone, we're getting closer to God by trying to reach Him now and in the afterlife.
The Roman Catholic Church is the one true church but has been attacked and undermined from within especially through Vatican II. Many of us were born shortly before the Council but many after and that is all they know. Oh the horrible spectacle of blessing ice, a special prayer room for another religion, a special chair for Charles, celebrating Nostra Aetate and on and on. It is staggering to take in. You think it can’t get worse but it does. We must hold to the truths handed down from Jesus Himself through the Apostles, saints and martyrs, and pray for the grace of final perseverance. Our faith during these times is fragile as you well know, Steve. Turn to the Blessed Mother. Glad to see you carry your Rosary with you. Keeping you in my prayers during this difficult time. I also was taught to fear God and wasn’t taught that he was also a loving Father. Fr. Joe’s comment really moved me. Thx for sharing that.
I used to look at things through the same lens, Sandy. There’s certainly a lot of damage done to the faith through the council, and we can see its effects.
But I’m more inclined than I’ve ever been do see the spirit that animated V2, even if we got something different in the end, as a necessary one.
Reform was needed. Correction of some of the unbearable harshness was much to be desired. The spirit of ecumenism may have run roughshod, but I’ve come to a place where I’d rather be in an ecumenical church than one that teaches that most people go to hell, many of them through no fault of their own. For centuries the church taught that even the unbaptized babies of Catholic parents were lost to the punishments of hell. To say nothing about the fate of family members or friends who happened to have been raised as the wrong denomination of Christian.
Even the liturgy needed reform. It had largely ceased to be the beautiful kind of TLM we see today and was often a hurried low Mass that the people - many of them illiterate, or not having access to a hand missal - couldn’t follow along with. A priest I know who only offers the TLM told me that by the Novus Ordo was promulgated, the liturgy in most places was in such a bad way that a majority welcomed the change - they were just not given something better.
I would say they were given something more understandable though, and that wasn’t nothing. My late grandmother, whom I deeply loved, was a convert from Methodism. She was so relieved when the Mass became something she felt she could understand. She was the most devout woman I’ve ever known, and most of her 8 children remain Catholic to this day. She was a daily masser for much of her life. I can’t just ignore her perspective, even if it doesn’t fully match with mine.
I think the ironclad, “this is how it has to be done and isn’t it scandalous that it isn’t” attitude that many of us have, or had, is both justifiable and dangerous. Dangerous because it has a tendency to crowd out love and full us with indignation and bitterness.
I’m not in a place right now where I can reconcile all these things, but I’m being moved to let go of the staunch black and white thinking I clung to and defended for most of my life. It didn’t help me keep my faith (or my marriage) and it certainly wasn’t helping me find my way back.
I don’t know the answers, but I find myself increasingly motivated by the idea that love and understanding and giving grace to the imperfect is the way God must want us to be if he is who we believe him to be.
The wrathful God who is scanning for failures is the one who drives much of the kind of Catholic ethos that broke me. The one who loves us so much that he’d do anything to save us is the only one that could possibly heal me - and I think that’s true for everyone.
I just have to say, Steve, how much certain parts of your post resonate with me.
Having long ago become so weary and disgusted with the non-stop banter of numerous factions within the Catholic Church, pontificating on a daily basis regarding the teachings if the Catholic Faith, I have come to believe that unless souls become as little children, they don't stand a snow balls chance in Hell.
All these decades of doctrinal horror....on all sides; the rending of garments from every direction is indicative of the fact.....yes, a fact...that the means to the end has become the end in itself.
Souls have fallen out of love for the Divine,; simple childlike trust and love GONE.
God and His undying love for His creatures, only asking to be loved in return has been usurped by words....opinions....volumes of rules which continue to be discussed and debated ad nauseam until the very life of a soul is crushed.
The Catholic Faith is the means to the end. It's a travesty beyond words what mankind has managed to do to It.
This is a beautiful post, and for my money, the most profound you have written -- anyway in the last year or two. (No offense to your others!) I am delighted to hear that you are coming open, at least ever so slightly, to a view of God as you outline here; and a view of doctrine. It seems practical and balanced. And beautiful. And liveable.
I struggle too. I was lying awake in bed recently and remembered what God said when He was a human. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He said other things too, but He said that. It doesn't sound very much like the God your mother was talking about.
The rest of this comment, I type with some fear and trembling, because it's the type of thing I usually try not to talk about among Roman Catholics. I'm a Protestant, but I'm not trying to convert people out of their tradition, and it seems rude to share some of these thoughts in another's house (as it were). You brought up some things of great relevance to that everlasting and weary discussion, and I hope you'll forgive my sharing the resonance they have from my perspective.
(1) The things you mention are primary reasons why I could not ever be a Roman Catholic. Yes, I have actual substantive problems and critiques of this or that doctrine, but there's something to be said for submission. But to walk in, head held high, and join an institution that very overtly says I must affirm things that I very strongly believe to be false? I don't see how to be an honest human creature and do it. Even without my head held high, for that matter.
That's not to gainsay the many beautiful things about the Roman Catholic Church or (far more) Roman Catholic believers themselves.
(2) It seems to me that one who truly believes the Roman Catholic Church is infallible will delight in the proliferation of new dogmas. Every new dogma is a new opportunity to know the truth for certain, and that is something humans love. I study math, and I don't find the proof of a new theorem to be an intellectual problem for me -- it's great to learn something that I didn't know before. It doesn't fill me with doubt and distress.
No, the people for whom it is a stumbling block are those -- certainly like me, perhaps like you -- who really don't believe that it is infallible. Then every new dogma has, quite simply, the prospect of another gulf destroying reunion between me and my brothers. Another reason why trying to join the Roman Church *would* fill me with doubt and distress. And the cause is obvious: whereas I believe that the deliverances of mathematical reason actually do give truth, I do *not* believe that about the deliverances of the Roman Catholic Church. And trying to force yourself to accept as true something you don't actually accept as true (or as infallible something you don't believe is infallible) -- well, that's a recipe for misery.
Roman Catholic (theological) conservatives would say I simply lack faith. As regards the Roman Church, they're quite right. I do. As regards God and Christ, thank God I do not. It can all get confusing and distressing at times, but I have come to think He wants us fighting through it to His love and beauty, and finding faith in Him in any event.
Anyway, the point is simply -- it seems to me to go to the essence of the Roman Church's traditional claims about herself whether her declaring new dogmas is good, or is not. But others may disagree. In any event, it most certainly does not go to the essence of the truth of Christ. And your point about stumbling blocks seems very powerful to me.
Please don't take this to be some kind of full-throated ra-ra defense of Protestantism. There's obviously much to criticize. Mencken's point has force. Mencken also did elsewhere say some very nice things about J. Gresham Machen -- even if he was a Presbyterian pastor. I think there's a little more to be said for preaching than he allows, when it doesn't pretend to come with the voice of God. But there is much, too, to be said for beauty in worship.
I hope I have not been too impertinent. I will now try to return to being a polite guest. I am delighted to read of recent developments.
Great comment, SMK. Thanks. Much to consider here. I think we're largely on the same page, I just have never found Christianity outside of Catholicism or Orthodoxy particularly appealing. But for now I'm just open to being led to what Lewis called Mere Christianity. Even that will take some time, I expect, if it happens at all.
Thank you.
I wasn't trying to talk you out of Catholicism, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was. It's hard to imagine you as something else, even just from what I've read of you. It just seemed relevant to agree with some of your points from across the water, as it were.
I think it's different when you're born into it. Then it's your church, and staying in it while not believing all its dogmas doesn't necessarily seem to involve one in the same issues. I'm speaking just from what I've observed in friends and others. It's never seemed urgent to me to try to talk someone out of the Catholic church who has faith in Jesus and is following him and is largely untroubled by whatever points in their theoretical system or practice I might have questions about.
I guess what I *would* say is just to remind that the rest of Christendom is there as a release valve (if you will). The Roman Catholic who is stumbling specifically over a specifically Roman Catholic dogma is someone whom I'll gently remind of the existence of other parts of the Christian world, in case that is the way forward for their faith.
But I don't think that mainly applies to you. I think your main questions are other and more central. If answering them or healing takes you to a type of Roman Catholicism where dogma is less of a tyrant in your mind*, that's wonderful.
I think I can understand why someone who had grown up in the richness of Catholicism (or Orthodoxy) would find other expressions too thin.
Incidentally, and a propos of none of this, but of your post: if you haven't read Lewis's "Problem of Pain," or haven't read it recently, I think it has some very beautiful passages about God's love. For whenever you're in the mood, if at all.
You'll continue to have my prayer, as a brother.
*Dogma as a tyrant in the mind happens in Protestantism, too.
(Edit: Of course, we'd probably all agree that some dogmas are necessary. I'm not referring to that as a tyrant, or trying to short-circuit difficult discussions about which are and which aren't.)
Thanks, SMK. I didn't think that's what you were trying to do. I guess I just felt compelled to explain why I am not considering that.
"Teach the Faith. But put away the gun." That last line melts the heart.
(and i would add LIVE THE FAITH as Jesus taught us.)
https://beyondthesestonewalls.com/posts/divine-mercy-for-doubting-thomas-and-other-spiritually-wounded
Hey Steve, with daylight "savings" time upon us, I have an extra hour to peruse stuff I've missed over the past couple of years. (ha) I was looking for something else, but came across this and thought of you. It helped me too.
I’ve learned a lot from Fr. Gordon MacCrae. I can’t imagine the suffering he endures daily. Thx for sharing this.
I’ve long felt a kinship with Thomas and his “doubt.” Show me the wounds, Lord, if that’s what it takes. I’m not in a status competition.
I agree that requiring belief in some dogmas is just arbitrary. A prime example of this is the dogma of the Assumption. Even the most conservative and orthodox of Catholic sources state that this belief doesn't even enter the record of Catholic thought until the 4th century. So if this belief is supposedly required for salvation, then how come the Christians of the first 300 years of the faith were fine without it?
“The point is, there were way too many credible people in my life and in the Church saying that God is scary and you’d better follow the rules or he’s going to open up a can of whoop-ass on you, and I believed it.“
You just described the entire rationale for hagiographic intercession, especially Marian intercession.
You also just described the reason for the inherent lack of any relationship with Jesus (outside of the Eucharist) that Catholics have. If Jesus is God and God is scary, what does that make Jesus?
This is great Steve, I’ve learned a lot from Orthodoxy’s way of just surrendering to God in prayer, we’re not gonna have all the answers, when you accept that, it becomes a feature of life and not a bug, I ended up hating the show Ted Lasso, but the line in season 1 is truly great, “Be curious, not judgmental”
"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and, in all things, charity" - often misattributed to John Wesley, but a common mantra in Methodism
So much wisdom in your post. I've personally taken the approach that I can get no closer to Him in truth than Catholicism/Orthodoxy, and so I'm willing to have my doubts that I pursue in good faith and still consider myself in good standing. Probably not what a "good" Catholic should do, but I trust (like you said in your post) that He understands.
I'm pushing 60 and have been Catholic now for 20 years. I never found any of the commandments very onerous, other than the requirement for an annulment to get married again, which was no fun (the annulment process, I mean!). As far as the defined dogmas go, maybe Mary really is sinless and was assumed into Heaven. I certainly cannot prove it, but if the Church says so, I don't have a problem with just assuming that it's true and not spending lots of time worrying about it. At the beginning, I did not understand the prohibition against contraception, but I accepted it, and as time went on, I understood it more and more. I would like to better understand the "outside the Church, no salvation" teaching; that seems to have some subtleties for wrapping one's head around. I'm very happy to have defined dogmas and precepts; it sure beats any of the Protestant churches, and even the Orthodox are hopelessly confused when it comes to divorce and remarriage. If I have slipped up and forgotten to confess it, well, I'll just have to commend myself to God's mercy and hope for the best. He is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful, which none of us can fully understand. If I do end up in Hell, I suppose God will have a really good reason for letting me go there. So good luck with your journey; remember God is both just and merciful.
When I was reading your thoughts…this verse was brought to me by Holy Spirit.
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
To increase your faith and understanding, spend large amounts of time in God’s Word. The gospels, New Testament epistles, and the book of Acts are written to Christians-which includes us, as Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I do not sweat the fine print. I don't think we are required to believe in much Marian doctrine to be in the saved. Do you believe Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit? I'd say that is important because without that, how could Jesus be true God and true man? The other Marian doctrines I'd say I take on faith, but they are not essential to salvation and they dont bother me. As a 3rd order Carmelite, i am devoted to Our Lady. I try to say at least part of a rosary every day. I think she's a great Mother to us and a friend. Christ performed the first miracle at Cana because His Mother asked. He didnt want to do it. This signalled two things: the importance of marriage and the fact that Jesus has a soft spot in His heart for His Mother. So we can ask the Mother of God, and the saints, and the angels to intercede with God on our behalf. Can we ask God directly for help? Yes. We should also do direct appeals to God for help and guidance each day. Here's what I think is essential to salvation: one must believe that Jesus Christ is true God, true man, died to save us from eternal damnation. We have fo believe He rose from the dead and will return and judge the living and the dead. Read the Nicene Creed--thats whats required for salvation. Believing the Nicene creed and then obeying the ten commandments. If we love Him, we will love the Father as well. And if we love Jesus and the Father, they will come and make their home with us. If we love Him, we will try to obey the ten commandments and avoid the seven deadly sins. We will try to help and serve others. I don't find God to be mean, threatening and angry. I find God to be loving, kind, patient, pure, merciful, and funny. Yes, God knows how to hit one's funny bone. Does God punish us? Yes, but He has a very long fuse and gives many warnings. I like Prots too. But I like and believe the Catholic faith more. I love the Virgin Mother, angels and saints. In my estimation, most (say 80%) go to Purgatory, which is custom made reform school. Purgatory can start on earth. If you are suffering, offer it up for your own sins and the suffering souls in Purgatory. Do I believe in He'll. Yes, Christ spoke at length on Hell. So I try to be perfect, as God advised. But I know I cannot be perfect. That's okay because trying to be perfect hopefully will keep me out of Hades. Google will not let me write "hell." Try reading the New Testament and the saints. Start practicing the faith again. NOVUS Ordo is okay. That's really Jesus Christ is the Eucharist. I do not like the current persecution of Trads and contemplatives from the top of RCC. Keep trying everyone, we're getting closer to God by trying to reach Him now and in the afterlife.
The Roman Catholic Church is the one true church but has been attacked and undermined from within especially through Vatican II. Many of us were born shortly before the Council but many after and that is all they know. Oh the horrible spectacle of blessing ice, a special prayer room for another religion, a special chair for Charles, celebrating Nostra Aetate and on and on. It is staggering to take in. You think it can’t get worse but it does. We must hold to the truths handed down from Jesus Himself through the Apostles, saints and martyrs, and pray for the grace of final perseverance. Our faith during these times is fragile as you well know, Steve. Turn to the Blessed Mother. Glad to see you carry your Rosary with you. Keeping you in my prayers during this difficult time. I also was taught to fear God and wasn’t taught that he was also a loving Father. Fr. Joe’s comment really moved me. Thx for sharing that.
I used to look at things through the same lens, Sandy. There’s certainly a lot of damage done to the faith through the council, and we can see its effects.
But I’m more inclined than I’ve ever been do see the spirit that animated V2, even if we got something different in the end, as a necessary one.
Reform was needed. Correction of some of the unbearable harshness was much to be desired. The spirit of ecumenism may have run roughshod, but I’ve come to a place where I’d rather be in an ecumenical church than one that teaches that most people go to hell, many of them through no fault of their own. For centuries the church taught that even the unbaptized babies of Catholic parents were lost to the punishments of hell. To say nothing about the fate of family members or friends who happened to have been raised as the wrong denomination of Christian.
Even the liturgy needed reform. It had largely ceased to be the beautiful kind of TLM we see today and was often a hurried low Mass that the people - many of them illiterate, or not having access to a hand missal - couldn’t follow along with. A priest I know who only offers the TLM told me that by the Novus Ordo was promulgated, the liturgy in most places was in such a bad way that a majority welcomed the change - they were just not given something better.
I would say they were given something more understandable though, and that wasn’t nothing. My late grandmother, whom I deeply loved, was a convert from Methodism. She was so relieved when the Mass became something she felt she could understand. She was the most devout woman I’ve ever known, and most of her 8 children remain Catholic to this day. She was a daily masser for much of her life. I can’t just ignore her perspective, even if it doesn’t fully match with mine.
I think the ironclad, “this is how it has to be done and isn’t it scandalous that it isn’t” attitude that many of us have, or had, is both justifiable and dangerous. Dangerous because it has a tendency to crowd out love and full us with indignation and bitterness.
I’m not in a place right now where I can reconcile all these things, but I’m being moved to let go of the staunch black and white thinking I clung to and defended for most of my life. It didn’t help me keep my faith (or my marriage) and it certainly wasn’t helping me find my way back.
I don’t know the answers, but I find myself increasingly motivated by the idea that love and understanding and giving grace to the imperfect is the way God must want us to be if he is who we believe him to be.
The wrathful God who is scanning for failures is the one who drives much of the kind of Catholic ethos that broke me. The one who loves us so much that he’d do anything to save us is the only one that could possibly heal me - and I think that’s true for everyone.