Traditionalist Catholicism is a dead end. If you start to question things, the logical end point is to leave the Roman Catholic Church, and that's not an easy move for anyone to take whose persona has been "Roman Catholic" - @tridentines1967 I saw the tweet above this morning (from my new Twitter account -
Thanks for the honest and intelligent summary of how you've come to your present position. It helps to understand where you and many others stand. It also forces me to look at things I'd rather ignore.
Steve, HI a glaring omission - you're leaving out Christ, who said "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father except through Me." I guess he's not very inclusive for you because he leaves out lots of folks. And "He who is not with Me is against Me." What have you done with HIM? He is not "nice". So have you consigned Him to the cauldron of your anger and hurt too? I too was damaged by wicked clergymen; 3 priests and a bishop. But there was still Christ and His Church. I was a revert Steve. I left the Church in my twenties and embarked upon a search of 25 years and practically all Eastern and Western religions, including the cults. (I started out as an atheist, but it was too religious for me).But Buddha delt with pain by meditating it away, the pantheists claimed that pain and everything else was merely Maya - nothing, and the gurus followed suit. I was later to realize that only ONE of the world's gods dealt with it by jumping into it. The Word. The Alpha and Omega. the Nazarene. After 35 years, I was stuck with Christ. And I wasn't initially happy about it.
I believe now that the Catholic Faith is a love affair with Jesus Christ. I wish that some day you will see it that way. I won't say "I am praying for you" because I know how damned irritating it can be.But I've loved you before, and I love you now. I don't care if I'm irritating you now.. It's just true.
I agree with your three premises as to why Traditionalism in the Catholic Church is a dead end. I would add a fourth: It is the sense of having the only correct view of reality which is knowing, or unwittingly, conveyed by many traditionalists. This is most especially apparent among the numerous online trad apologists. The trads’ constant pronouncements betray an underlying belief that they alone have the true interpretation of history, the fathers, Thomas Aquinas, the Councils, theology, the Catechism, Cannon Law, proper practice and the true way of Catholic daily life.
In the fifty years since my conversion, I have met and come to know, a number of priests, religious and lay scholars, protestant and evangelical ministers. Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits, Holy Cross Fathers, Sisters of Mercy, many highly educated and extremely well read. Almost none of them approach the questions faith, tradition, interpretation of scripture and the magisterium, with the view that they, and they alone, have it all figured out, or that their interpretation is the only correct one.
This operational certainty in many Trad commentators displays itself to an ‘outsider’ as an almost gnostic (we have the only, secret way) attitude of superiority. I know that most trads would deny this and that they sincerely do not intend such a result. However, the constant harping about the horrors of the Novus Ordo, the heresy of the Pope, the destruction of tradition by Vatican II, the unpiety and non-traditional life styles of all other Catholic and Christians leaves the non-trad, non-insider, with a sense that these folks really see all others as sinful, unfaithful, lesser beings. (It also makes an outsider wonder if all this constant berating of others comes out of some deep sense of insecurity by the trads in their own beliefs.)
I am not against tradition. I love the pre-Vatican II form of the Mass. It is holy, reverent and is an important part of the faith. However, it must stand (and I believe it can and does stand) upon its own worth and beauty, not by denigrating everything and everyone that is not tradition, or traditional.
Having said all that, there is a far deeper issue in your posting. After reading you latest comment I hesitate to state what comes next. You don’t know me, and I only know you through your postings. It is terribly presumptuous of me to think I have any real sense of your life, or that I can give advice. Nevertheless, I am going to proceed. If what I say does not apply just let it pass.
None of this makes any sense, none of this has any relevance, without a deep and abiding relationship with God, with Jesus, who is the incarnation of God with us, without a sense of the manifestation of God as Holy Spirit working in your life. My conversation from the atheism of my late teens was not to the Church but to God. After looking, questioning, seeking, for a number of years I found myself convicted of God’s existence, of God’s presence and of Jesus being God having come among us. I did nothing to receive this except to ask and seek. The rest was a gift.
He is there. You are not abandoned.
For me, the Church, and, all of its messy, complicated and frankly, often irrational, reality came later (and is still being worked out, one day, one issue at a time, with little hope that all my questions and doubts will be resolved before I die.)
I hope you can find this gift. I pray that you will. I pray for you and your family every day.
My parents were swept up in the Protestant speaking in the tongues of the 70’s. The heretic lectured down to us about sin all the time. He resigned after admitting he was homosexual years later. The priest that married myself and wife was banned from the Church do to child creepiness. When I was in rehab in Colorado I went to Fr. James Jackson’s parish. I wore jeans with a belt, tennis shoes, and a long sleeve t shirt tucked in. In the parish bulletin the next week Fr. James Jackson lectured how t shirts were COMPLETELY absurd. I gave a confession to Fr. James Jackson.
Think you have it bad? I have a wife that threw me under the bus and is currently fucking one of the groomsman for the last 8 years. Try raising your kids with that.
Your theology is shit. Quit wasting time on it.
The infallible Pope with his infallible Council with the infallible Written Documents says that babies go to Hell. They are correct.
Do you think Mary allows this?
“Ummm…....no God.” Is He going to deny Her request?
Read True Devotion to Mary and tell me I’m wrong.
I recommend saying 3 Hail Mary’s a day. I have tried selling my children to take 30 second out of their day for it and they laugh at me…. because they are so smart.
P.S. To put it another way. Do you think the beautiful churches built in Europe for over a 1000 years were built for Jesus, the Pope, and Councils?
He is talking to you. But you have built up so much against Him, you can't hear Him. He speaks, but there is so much chaos in your soul, He is drowned out. When I'm in that state, all I can hear is my anger against Him. When I can, with help, return to sanity and peace. I can "hear" Him, and Love Him. This happened to me last year. I projected my inner feelings of anger and rejection onto Christ...but I knew I that was what I was doing, due to years of therapy. So I willed myself to stop (it can be done). Eventually, it stopped.
The sun can't shine on a raging body of water. It can only shine on water that is peaceful.
The Traditionalist Trajectory is a Dead End
Thanks for the honest and intelligent summary of how you've come to your present position. It helps to understand where you and many others stand. It also forces me to look at things I'd rather ignore.
Yes, it hurts to have ones eyes opened. Thank you for thinking this through enough to explain the problem so well.
Thank you for always sharing your heart so generously brother. You are a man of integrity.
Steve, HI a glaring omission - you're leaving out Christ, who said "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one comes to the Father except through Me." I guess he's not very inclusive for you because he leaves out lots of folks. And "He who is not with Me is against Me." What have you done with HIM? He is not "nice". So have you consigned Him to the cauldron of your anger and hurt too? I too was damaged by wicked clergymen; 3 priests and a bishop. But there was still Christ and His Church. I was a revert Steve. I left the Church in my twenties and embarked upon a search of 25 years and practically all Eastern and Western religions, including the cults. (I started out as an atheist, but it was too religious for me).But Buddha delt with pain by meditating it away, the pantheists claimed that pain and everything else was merely Maya - nothing, and the gurus followed suit. I was later to realize that only ONE of the world's gods dealt with it by jumping into it. The Word. The Alpha and Omega. the Nazarene. After 35 years, I was stuck with Christ. And I wasn't initially happy about it.
I believe now that the Catholic Faith is a love affair with Jesus Christ. I wish that some day you will see it that way. I won't say "I am praying for you" because I know how damned irritating it can be.But I've loved you before, and I love you now. I don't care if I'm irritating you now.. It's just true.
I agree with your three premises as to why Traditionalism in the Catholic Church is a dead end. I would add a fourth: It is the sense of having the only correct view of reality which is knowing, or unwittingly, conveyed by many traditionalists. This is most especially apparent among the numerous online trad apologists. The trads’ constant pronouncements betray an underlying belief that they alone have the true interpretation of history, the fathers, Thomas Aquinas, the Councils, theology, the Catechism, Cannon Law, proper practice and the true way of Catholic daily life.
In the fifty years since my conversion, I have met and come to know, a number of priests, religious and lay scholars, protestant and evangelical ministers. Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits, Holy Cross Fathers, Sisters of Mercy, many highly educated and extremely well read. Almost none of them approach the questions faith, tradition, interpretation of scripture and the magisterium, with the view that they, and they alone, have it all figured out, or that their interpretation is the only correct one.
This operational certainty in many Trad commentators displays itself to an ‘outsider’ as an almost gnostic (we have the only, secret way) attitude of superiority. I know that most trads would deny this and that they sincerely do not intend such a result. However, the constant harping about the horrors of the Novus Ordo, the heresy of the Pope, the destruction of tradition by Vatican II, the unpiety and non-traditional life styles of all other Catholic and Christians leaves the non-trad, non-insider, with a sense that these folks really see all others as sinful, unfaithful, lesser beings. (It also makes an outsider wonder if all this constant berating of others comes out of some deep sense of insecurity by the trads in their own beliefs.)
I am not against tradition. I love the pre-Vatican II form of the Mass. It is holy, reverent and is an important part of the faith. However, it must stand (and I believe it can and does stand) upon its own worth and beauty, not by denigrating everything and everyone that is not tradition, or traditional.
Having said all that, there is a far deeper issue in your posting. After reading you latest comment I hesitate to state what comes next. You don’t know me, and I only know you through your postings. It is terribly presumptuous of me to think I have any real sense of your life, or that I can give advice. Nevertheless, I am going to proceed. If what I say does not apply just let it pass.
None of this makes any sense, none of this has any relevance, without a deep and abiding relationship with God, with Jesus, who is the incarnation of God with us, without a sense of the manifestation of God as Holy Spirit working in your life. My conversation from the atheism of my late teens was not to the Church but to God. After looking, questioning, seeking, for a number of years I found myself convicted of God’s existence, of God’s presence and of Jesus being God having come among us. I did nothing to receive this except to ask and seek. The rest was a gift.
He is there. You are not abandoned.
For me, the Church, and, all of its messy, complicated and frankly, often irrational, reality came later (and is still being worked out, one day, one issue at a time, with little hope that all my questions and doubts will be resolved before I die.)
I hope you can find this gift. I pray that you will. I pray for you and your family every day.
JT
Yes, it hurts to have ones eyes opened. Thank you for thinking this through enough to explain the problem so well.
Again.
For the record: I will put enmity between you and the Woman.
So the Doctors of the Church say babies go to hell.
But Mary is 10000000000000000000000000000x above the Doctors.
And 10000000000000000000000000000000x above Angels.
Pretty sure what ever she request happens.
Do you think she allows babies to go to Hell?
Hello Steve
I can assure. I get it. The cult part.
My parents were swept up in the Protestant speaking in the tongues of the 70’s. The heretic lectured down to us about sin all the time. He resigned after admitting he was homosexual years later. The priest that married myself and wife was banned from the Church do to child creepiness. When I was in rehab in Colorado I went to Fr. James Jackson’s parish. I wore jeans with a belt, tennis shoes, and a long sleeve t shirt tucked in. In the parish bulletin the next week Fr. James Jackson lectured how t shirts were COMPLETELY absurd. I gave a confession to Fr. James Jackson.
Think you have it bad? I have a wife that threw me under the bus and is currently fucking one of the groomsman for the last 8 years. Try raising your kids with that.
Your theology is shit. Quit wasting time on it.
The infallible Pope with his infallible Council with the infallible Written Documents says that babies go to Hell. They are correct.
Do you think Mary allows this?
“Ummm…....no God.” Is He going to deny Her request?
Read True Devotion to Mary and tell me I’m wrong.
I recommend saying 3 Hail Mary’s a day. I have tried selling my children to take 30 second out of their day for it and they laugh at me…. because they are so smart.
P.S. To put it another way. Do you think the beautiful churches built in Europe for over a 1000 years were built for Jesus, the Pope, and Councils?
Built by folks that did not know how to read?
It was all for Mary.
He is talking to you. But you have built up so much against Him, you can't hear Him. He speaks, but there is so much chaos in your soul, He is drowned out. When I'm in that state, all I can hear is my anger against Him. When I can, with help, return to sanity and peace. I can "hear" Him, and Love Him. This happened to me last year. I projected my inner feelings of anger and rejection onto Christ...but I knew I that was what I was doing, due to years of therapy. So I willed myself to stop (it can be done). Eventually, it stopped.
The sun can't shine on a raging body of water. It can only shine on water that is peaceful.
Your empiricism is smothered by the fumes from your rage and grief.