As someone raised nominally Catholic who spent 30 years as an atheist politely calling herself agnostic, I don't know much about Trads and what they say and do and why. I came back to the Church when I realized the only true alternate to God was nihilism, and nihilism is completely bonkers. I would like to have a community but I probably haven't put in enough effort to find one. Instead, I go to church, read and study online. The intellectual route to faith is tough, at least for me. As hard as it is to say so, one thing that helped me along was a devastating personal loss last year. When you come face to face with death, the rubber of faith hits the road of life in a way that will determine your trajectory, I think, for a long time. In my case, I simply believed. I believed like a small child, in my heart, that I would see my loved one again. I just knew, with a conviction I have never felt before.
There is an argument against the existence of God that runs roughly: God is all loving, and so would grant faith in Him to all who had a sincere desire for such. I sincerely desire to believe in God, yet he has not granted me faith, therefore an all loving God does not exist. I think this argument ultimately fails because while God is omnibenevolent, he is also ineffable. We can certainly say and believe He is all loving, but we can't know exactly what that looks like, because we can't know the mind of God. Whatever God is, He is not an indulgent genie granting infinite wishes as the argument above would have us define Him. Christ, however, has assured us that the Father loves us, so we have it on the best authority.
As to whether God as our Father prefers legalism or love, well, according to John, God is love. The answer would seem to be clear. However, love is not mere indulgence. Love is hard work, and often involves great suffering. It requires faithfulness, honesty and determination. Love is hard. God has given us an instruction manual on how to live and love, and sent his own Son as an example. We, as fallen sinful human beings, are not capable of following such an example, of course, we are only asked to try. God does not expect us to do the impossible.
There are many saints and they have said many things over the last 2000 or so years, but the teaching authority of the Magisterium has laid out the Catholic faith for all to see in the Catechism. What I do not find there is any reference to the number of sins one can commit before God will strike one down or send one to hell. Nor do I see that there are limits to God's mercy. I see rather that no one is to be deemed irredeemable by us. Still, we know that God abhors sin and so obviously we should strive not to sin, and when we do sin we ought to repent. One wonderful thing about being Catholic is that we believe in the forgiveness of sins.
I don't think you necessarily need to look outside Catholicism for examples of views that differ from the apparent bean counting legalism of St. Alphonsus. Jacques Phillippe, for example has written some lovely little books on finding peace and the path to holiness for Catholics. In "Searching for and Maintaining Peace", he recounts how St. Therese of Lisieux encouraged one of her sisters by telling her that, in the experience of a great exorcist, demons themselves could never overcome the "bloody little dog" of goodwill. Goodwill being just the unfailing desire to please God and getting back up every time you fall into transgression. We can begin again, and again, and again. Every day, every hour, every minute. God knows how imperfect we are and loves us anyway.
May God bless you and grant you the peace beyond all understanding.
Thanks for this article. I can relate to what you wrote about in so many ways. I am subscribing because you are not a ministry and you are not profiting from stirring up fear and division in the name of righteousness. Good luck in this business venture!
I have been looking more seriously at Orthodoxy myself. My mother was Syrian Orthodox so it is not entirely novel, but it is a leap nonetheless. I am impressed by much of what I have read. I am also a lifelong admirer of Russian literature, and there you will find a deep and mystical faith that can lift people out of the most heinous sin as in Dostoyevsky, a faith which is very much a part of people’s every day, even sinful, lives, as in Chekhov. You will also find a lot of superstition masquerading as faith and corruption and fawning over the rich by the clergy in Gorky and Gogol. People, East and West, are still people, but I think there is a lot to be learned from the Orthodox, and maybe it is easier to concentrate on their spirituality, which from my limited understanding is ordered more to healing the soul, especially as so many of us have been wounded by the Latin Church. Healing sounds very good indeed.
How our children’s view of God is molded by their parents is a very complicated thing. I grew up unwanted, unloved, a child of shame, the product of adultery. I have never been able to believe that God loved me. We set out to have a large family, we loved and cherished each child, our lives still revolve around them and now their children. Our time and money are always at their disposal. One of my children recently said “Daddy and you taught us all the facts about God- the Bible, the catechism, the sacraments, took us to church, and did the best you could. We always felt loved by you both. But you never told us that God loved us, at least it never seemed like you made a point of impressing that on us.” And it is perfectly true. I don’t think I could communicate something so big, that I myself couldn’t believe, to my children. My husband has a stronger faith than I do but also shied away from the subject, feeling unlovable as well. So while unloving parents certainly can make it nearly impossible for children to grow up believing in a loving God it is also extremely difficult to pass on the love of God if you’ve never known it, no matter how much you want to help your children have that relationship. And when the chips are down, as they certainly are in these times, an intellectual faith is little consolation. The belief that God lives each of us is indispensable, no amount of theology can substitute for it.
Continue studying and take consolation where you can. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and discoveries with us.
Christ also replaced the letter of the law in the Old Testament with the spirit of the law in the New. So I’m going with love over legalism. Remember, He healed on a Sunday and scandalized the Pharisees.
Been thinking about this very problem quite a bit since Covid and the election, and now the new moth proprio. Ive got people telling me I’m going to be dead or in the camps before too long, and the dread eats me alive and robs me of any peace. That can’t be from God, I think, hopefully. But I vacillate between thinking that all of this is a punishment from God, and we deserve it, because we’re all absolutely horrible beings. Or is all this a passing tribulation that He will deliver us from in order to show His mercy and love? I pray for peace in the world, the church to be restored, health and safety for myself and my children, money for our needs, but then I’m racked with guilt because “holy” people just pray to die and be with God, right? They hate the world, they pray to suffer, they seem to like it. You’re not being holy enough if you pray for those intentions. I’m supposed to just grin and bear it, because whatever I get, it’s God’s will and I deserve it. I make a big show of peacefully accepting good and bad, and just praying God’s will be done, but I don’t REALLY feel that deep down. I feel scared and I just want all the bad to stop. Then I feel like God hates me because I don’t want to suffer anymore or worse. I wonder why God makes us crave love and affection and security if the road to truly loving Him is abandoning all of that? I know there’s a way to reconcile it, just not seeing it lately.
Steve, it's not naive at all to believe that God is a loving Father that consoles first, then teaches us the "rules" to keep us safe. I often refer to Romans 5:5-6 to remind myself of this. My apologies, I'm a convert from Evangelicalism so I still like to verse sling once in awhile.
Since entering the Catholic Church 18 years ago, I've found that legalism easily creeps in and can drag me down into despair if I'm not careful. Is it the Church's fault or mine? I don't know for sure. It's something I'm wrestling with right now. I definitely share most of the feelings you've written about. I've recently gotten back to reading my bible every morning, along with some prayer time, which has helped. I don't tell you this in hopes that you follow my lead, just that the more I revisit the New Testament (which I used to know quite well), the more I'm reminded of the basic Gospel message which my past denomination grasped so well. God our Father loves me, He died for me, He's here with me now. Grace and Peace. Mike
Hi Steve! I'm not nearly as wise or articulate as most of the other commenters here, so I just want to thank you for being honest and sharing your experiences with us here.
I'm about the same age as you are, and while my life is quite different than yours, I am also going through some struggles with faith these days. I might know more "about" the faith, and "about" many devotions than the average Catholic, but it has become quite clear to me by the way that I live that I don't have any kind of real trust in, or relationship with God. I'm full of worries and anxieties and feel that I have to handle it all alone.
Your articles have really helped me to understand and to articulate some of my difficulties and struggles. I'm Catholic, believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and I don't plan to leave it. But I do see how much truth and valuable teaching that there is in other denominations, and I recognise them as fellow Christians. I find myself turning more and more to Eastern Catholic and Orthodox resources.
Very good and thoughtful essay. I am in a very similar place. Although I find a lot to admire in Orthodoxy, it does seem to be too ethnically based and they have other problems. A lot of traditionalist Catholicism reminds me of the legalistic Evangelical Fundamentalism of my youth. It's nice to see that someone else is sharing the struggle. Keep up the good work, Steve!
"God loves us more than a father, mother, friend, or any else could love, and even more than we are able to love ourselves." – Saint John Chrysostom (347-407)
God's love is the centerpiece of the Gospel. Because of love, he created all things. Because of love, he let all things make their own paths. Because of love, he died to heal broken souls and set everything aright.
We do have a tender-hearted God. Anything that blinds us to love, or that makes us see each other through a distorted lense of arrogance and hatred instead of awe and compassion, is not from God. Hurting someone's ability to love is the gravest sin, because it strikes at the soul, at who we are. God is love, and the image or reflection of God is also love.
I pray that God reveals the fullness of his love to you, Steve - his unconditional love and readiness to help you in all things.
As a teen, the "Irish" legalistic Catholic world drove me to a rejection of God, Christ and the Church. At thirteen I realized I could not live up to all the Church's demands, It was impossible, rediculous. It was depressing to even think about it.
Only through an introduction to God as a loving Father, who loved me so much he sent his only "beloved" Son, who also loved me enough to suffer and die to rescue me, was I able to discover true faith and to begin to believe.
The wonderous thing is that knowing that God loves me brought me back to the Church, to the Eucharist, even to the "rules and regulations". Now in love, I do not fear God's wrath and punishment as much as I am fearful of insulting, or of bringing sorrow or disappointment, to one who loves me so. The things that had been such impossible burdens became far easier when I do them as a way to return the love that is given to me, instead of out of fear of punishment.
Instead of contrasting legalism with love I think the answer may be closer to Jesus's response to the scribe who asked which is the greatest commandment. First comes love by God and Christ, and love of God by us in return. In this is summed up all the laws and rules of the faith. Such things only become alive with love.
Bravo Steve, beautiful piece. Love that you are keying into your fatherhood in your quest. Keep going! Matt 13:44-46 - you have bought the field, keep digging for the treasure that is the real Catholic faith.
Great post. I was just listening to a new (to me) podcast series today by Fr John Strickland, an Orthodox priest in WA. Over the podcast series, and in a related series of books he's writing, he looks at the history of Western Christendom from the perspective of Orthodoxy. Among other things, he describes the Latin West's descent into what he describes as a kind of authoritarian pessimism following the West's separation from the East. It's pretty much a deeper explanation of the sort of thing you're describing here. This was a pretty good overview of his project. I think you might like it. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/paradiseutopia/introduction_to_part_3
As a former Tradcat and now EO, this article sums up the turmoil that was within me at one point. The two year period between Rome and Orthodox was a spiritual wasteland of loneliness and constant fear and doubts. Now resting in EO, my amazing spiritual father spends hours a week helping to deprogram the rigour out of my heart. It's a lifelong process I'm sure. I lost one of my kids to the world because of my rigorous and inflexible RCC views. I pray daily for the remaining son at home and for the daughter to return to Christ.
As someone raised nominally Catholic who spent 30 years as an atheist politely calling herself agnostic, I don't know much about Trads and what they say and do and why. I came back to the Church when I realized the only true alternate to God was nihilism, and nihilism is completely bonkers. I would like to have a community but I probably haven't put in enough effort to find one. Instead, I go to church, read and study online. The intellectual route to faith is tough, at least for me. As hard as it is to say so, one thing that helped me along was a devastating personal loss last year. When you come face to face with death, the rubber of faith hits the road of life in a way that will determine your trajectory, I think, for a long time. In my case, I simply believed. I believed like a small child, in my heart, that I would see my loved one again. I just knew, with a conviction I have never felt before.
There is an argument against the existence of God that runs roughly: God is all loving, and so would grant faith in Him to all who had a sincere desire for such. I sincerely desire to believe in God, yet he has not granted me faith, therefore an all loving God does not exist. I think this argument ultimately fails because while God is omnibenevolent, he is also ineffable. We can certainly say and believe He is all loving, but we can't know exactly what that looks like, because we can't know the mind of God. Whatever God is, He is not an indulgent genie granting infinite wishes as the argument above would have us define Him. Christ, however, has assured us that the Father loves us, so we have it on the best authority.
As to whether God as our Father prefers legalism or love, well, according to John, God is love. The answer would seem to be clear. However, love is not mere indulgence. Love is hard work, and often involves great suffering. It requires faithfulness, honesty and determination. Love is hard. God has given us an instruction manual on how to live and love, and sent his own Son as an example. We, as fallen sinful human beings, are not capable of following such an example, of course, we are only asked to try. God does not expect us to do the impossible.
There are many saints and they have said many things over the last 2000 or so years, but the teaching authority of the Magisterium has laid out the Catholic faith for all to see in the Catechism. What I do not find there is any reference to the number of sins one can commit before God will strike one down or send one to hell. Nor do I see that there are limits to God's mercy. I see rather that no one is to be deemed irredeemable by us. Still, we know that God abhors sin and so obviously we should strive not to sin, and when we do sin we ought to repent. One wonderful thing about being Catholic is that we believe in the forgiveness of sins.
I don't think you necessarily need to look outside Catholicism for examples of views that differ from the apparent bean counting legalism of St. Alphonsus. Jacques Phillippe, for example has written some lovely little books on finding peace and the path to holiness for Catholics. In "Searching for and Maintaining Peace", he recounts how St. Therese of Lisieux encouraged one of her sisters by telling her that, in the experience of a great exorcist, demons themselves could never overcome the "bloody little dog" of goodwill. Goodwill being just the unfailing desire to please God and getting back up every time you fall into transgression. We can begin again, and again, and again. Every day, every hour, every minute. God knows how imperfect we are and loves us anyway.
May God bless you and grant you the peace beyond all understanding.
Thanks for this article. I can relate to what you wrote about in so many ways. I am subscribing because you are not a ministry and you are not profiting from stirring up fear and division in the name of righteousness. Good luck in this business venture!
I have been looking more seriously at Orthodoxy myself. My mother was Syrian Orthodox so it is not entirely novel, but it is a leap nonetheless. I am impressed by much of what I have read. I am also a lifelong admirer of Russian literature, and there you will find a deep and mystical faith that can lift people out of the most heinous sin as in Dostoyevsky, a faith which is very much a part of people’s every day, even sinful, lives, as in Chekhov. You will also find a lot of superstition masquerading as faith and corruption and fawning over the rich by the clergy in Gorky and Gogol. People, East and West, are still people, but I think there is a lot to be learned from the Orthodox, and maybe it is easier to concentrate on their spirituality, which from my limited understanding is ordered more to healing the soul, especially as so many of us have been wounded by the Latin Church. Healing sounds very good indeed.
How our children’s view of God is molded by their parents is a very complicated thing. I grew up unwanted, unloved, a child of shame, the product of adultery. I have never been able to believe that God loved me. We set out to have a large family, we loved and cherished each child, our lives still revolve around them and now their children. Our time and money are always at their disposal. One of my children recently said “Daddy and you taught us all the facts about God- the Bible, the catechism, the sacraments, took us to church, and did the best you could. We always felt loved by you both. But you never told us that God loved us, at least it never seemed like you made a point of impressing that on us.” And it is perfectly true. I don’t think I could communicate something so big, that I myself couldn’t believe, to my children. My husband has a stronger faith than I do but also shied away from the subject, feeling unlovable as well. So while unloving parents certainly can make it nearly impossible for children to grow up believing in a loving God it is also extremely difficult to pass on the love of God if you’ve never known it, no matter how much you want to help your children have that relationship. And when the chips are down, as they certainly are in these times, an intellectual faith is little consolation. The belief that God lives each of us is indispensable, no amount of theology can substitute for it.
Continue studying and take consolation where you can. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and discoveries with us.
Christ also replaced the letter of the law in the Old Testament with the spirit of the law in the New. So I’m going with love over legalism. Remember, He healed on a Sunday and scandalized the Pharisees.
Been thinking about this very problem quite a bit since Covid and the election, and now the new moth proprio. Ive got people telling me I’m going to be dead or in the camps before too long, and the dread eats me alive and robs me of any peace. That can’t be from God, I think, hopefully. But I vacillate between thinking that all of this is a punishment from God, and we deserve it, because we’re all absolutely horrible beings. Or is all this a passing tribulation that He will deliver us from in order to show His mercy and love? I pray for peace in the world, the church to be restored, health and safety for myself and my children, money for our needs, but then I’m racked with guilt because “holy” people just pray to die and be with God, right? They hate the world, they pray to suffer, they seem to like it. You’re not being holy enough if you pray for those intentions. I’m supposed to just grin and bear it, because whatever I get, it’s God’s will and I deserve it. I make a big show of peacefully accepting good and bad, and just praying God’s will be done, but I don’t REALLY feel that deep down. I feel scared and I just want all the bad to stop. Then I feel like God hates me because I don’t want to suffer anymore or worse. I wonder why God makes us crave love and affection and security if the road to truly loving Him is abandoning all of that? I know there’s a way to reconcile it, just not seeing it lately.
Steve, it's not naive at all to believe that God is a loving Father that consoles first, then teaches us the "rules" to keep us safe. I often refer to Romans 5:5-6 to remind myself of this. My apologies, I'm a convert from Evangelicalism so I still like to verse sling once in awhile.
Since entering the Catholic Church 18 years ago, I've found that legalism easily creeps in and can drag me down into despair if I'm not careful. Is it the Church's fault or mine? I don't know for sure. It's something I'm wrestling with right now. I definitely share most of the feelings you've written about. I've recently gotten back to reading my bible every morning, along with some prayer time, which has helped. I don't tell you this in hopes that you follow my lead, just that the more I revisit the New Testament (which I used to know quite well), the more I'm reminded of the basic Gospel message which my past denomination grasped so well. God our Father loves me, He died for me, He's here with me now. Grace and Peace. Mike
Hi Steve! I'm not nearly as wise or articulate as most of the other commenters here, so I just want to thank you for being honest and sharing your experiences with us here.
I'm about the same age as you are, and while my life is quite different than yours, I am also going through some struggles with faith these days. I might know more "about" the faith, and "about" many devotions than the average Catholic, but it has become quite clear to me by the way that I live that I don't have any kind of real trust in, or relationship with God. I'm full of worries and anxieties and feel that I have to handle it all alone.
Your articles have really helped me to understand and to articulate some of my difficulties and struggles. I'm Catholic, believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and I don't plan to leave it. But I do see how much truth and valuable teaching that there is in other denominations, and I recognise them as fellow Christians. I find myself turning more and more to Eastern Catholic and Orthodox resources.
I've been follow Abbot Tryphon's daily messages. Here is the link in case anyone is interested: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering/
Beautiful.
For a fun-read with flowery rhetoric from an Eastern Orthodox theologian, may I recommend the book: That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart.
Well argued and eye-opening, to say the very, very least.
Very good and thoughtful essay. I am in a very similar place. Although I find a lot to admire in Orthodoxy, it does seem to be too ethnically based and they have other problems. A lot of traditionalist Catholicism reminds me of the legalistic Evangelical Fundamentalism of my youth. It's nice to see that someone else is sharing the struggle. Keep up the good work, Steve!
"God loves us more than a father, mother, friend, or any else could love, and even more than we are able to love ourselves." – Saint John Chrysostom (347-407)
God's love is the centerpiece of the Gospel. Because of love, he created all things. Because of love, he let all things make their own paths. Because of love, he died to heal broken souls and set everything aright.
We do have a tender-hearted God. Anything that blinds us to love, or that makes us see each other through a distorted lense of arrogance and hatred instead of awe and compassion, is not from God. Hurting someone's ability to love is the gravest sin, because it strikes at the soul, at who we are. God is love, and the image or reflection of God is also love.
I pray that God reveals the fullness of his love to you, Steve - his unconditional love and readiness to help you in all things.
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2006/11/01/words-from-st-isaac-of-syria/
Yes! Yes! Yes! God loves you.
As a teen, the "Irish" legalistic Catholic world drove me to a rejection of God, Christ and the Church. At thirteen I realized I could not live up to all the Church's demands, It was impossible, rediculous. It was depressing to even think about it.
Only through an introduction to God as a loving Father, who loved me so much he sent his only "beloved" Son, who also loved me enough to suffer and die to rescue me, was I able to discover true faith and to begin to believe.
The wonderous thing is that knowing that God loves me brought me back to the Church, to the Eucharist, even to the "rules and regulations". Now in love, I do not fear God's wrath and punishment as much as I am fearful of insulting, or of bringing sorrow or disappointment, to one who loves me so. The things that had been such impossible burdens became far easier when I do them as a way to return the love that is given to me, instead of out of fear of punishment.
Instead of contrasting legalism with love I think the answer may be closer to Jesus's response to the scribe who asked which is the greatest commandment. First comes love by God and Christ, and love of God by us in return. In this is summed up all the laws and rules of the faith. Such things only become alive with love.
JT
Bravo Steve, beautiful piece. Love that you are keying into your fatherhood in your quest. Keep going! Matt 13:44-46 - you have bought the field, keep digging for the treasure that is the real Catholic faith.
Oh Steve, I think both! But love first.
Great post. I was just listening to a new (to me) podcast series today by Fr John Strickland, an Orthodox priest in WA. Over the podcast series, and in a related series of books he's writing, he looks at the history of Western Christendom from the perspective of Orthodoxy. Among other things, he describes the Latin West's descent into what he describes as a kind of authoritarian pessimism following the West's separation from the East. It's pretty much a deeper explanation of the sort of thing you're describing here. This was a pretty good overview of his project. I think you might like it. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/paradiseutopia/introduction_to_part_3
Yes! I can see the love breaking through..........great piece. Thank you.
As a former Tradcat and now EO, this article sums up the turmoil that was within me at one point. The two year period between Rome and Orthodox was a spiritual wasteland of loneliness and constant fear and doubts. Now resting in EO, my amazing spiritual father spends hours a week helping to deprogram the rigour out of my heart. It's a lifelong process I'm sure. I lost one of my kids to the world because of my rigorous and inflexible RCC views. I pray daily for the remaining son at home and for the daughter to return to Christ.