Dec 4, 2023·edited Dec 4, 2023Liked by Steve Skojec
I don't know where you are in thinking about Catholic sexual teaching, but another part of this I think is just Catholics twisting themselves into pretzels to deny that some people are just really, actually gay and they just can't magic themselves out of that condition. I don't mean to say that Catholics need to agree with or encourage people to be actively homosexual, but I have seen multiple instances where Catholics wish so hard for people to be able to stop being gay or to become ex-gay or whatever, that they tout these stories of conversion or return that, from an outside perspective, are extremely fishy. I am coming from a comparatively conservative Catholic background and of the 6 (that I know of) people that I met from the same background (across high school and college) who turned out to be gay, only one is successfully living according to Church teaching. That's an 83% failure rate among well-catechized young adults on what is supposed to be a universal teaching. The others went through varying levels of self-flagellation and mental gymnastics to be ex-gay or openly gay but never in a relationship, and at varying points either left the faith wholesale or became 'cafeteria' Catholics- so that they could have relationships, hopes for any kind of family (it was that or be single forever or do religious life, where you are viewed as a liability if you are gay), etc. I don't endorse surrogacy or all that stuff but my point is just that, to be honest, I just haven't seen Church teaching on this issue work out for the majority of the people I know who are affected by this. Again, small sample size and I am only in my late 20s, but when I see people like Michael Voris, I think of young Catholics I have known who try super hard to deny their sexual orientation or be gay and find any kind of livable, exciting, fulfilling life within the Catholic Church - and that becomes a weird psychological alienation in itself that easily leads to a double life. This is not to say I have really any great pity for Voris, who i think capitalized on scandal and justly deserves the criticism he has received. Nor am I saying Church teaching is impossible, or that chastity is bad, but simply that I am reflecting on my own observation that somewhere along the line this particular teaching doesn't seem to be leading to much observable human flourishing. Like you can't both treat homosexuality as a radioactive disease and also expect gay Catholics to be super well adjusted. Again, all my opinion, and I welcome others' thoughts.
This article is very accurate in its assessment of conservative Catholic circles: we get duped easily by "strong men." It got me thinking about all of the voices in the Catholic world that I used to hang on every word, every day for years. Keep in mind, I'm not saying these people or channels are evil or corrupt, but I've become much more weary of stuff like this. Here is a list of what seems like another lifetime to me: Church Militant, Sensus Fidelium, The Remnant, Taylor Marshall (your fave), Trad Cat Knight, Fatima Center, Dimond Brothers (sedevacantists, I know), Fr. Ripperger, E. Michael Jones, and What Catholics Believe with Fr. Jenkins I think was his name. I'm sure I've left some out, but you get the point. I had to walk away from that stuff, it was too fear based, too angry and negative. It had the same vibes of the fundamentalists Christians that used to (and still) badger me with blood moons and rapture talk. Enough is enough.
What the holy hell? The Pause Program??? Wake up people!!! When I learned of the Vatican residence for young boys serving the mass:
The St. Pius X Pre-seminary was founded by in 1956 by Pope Pius XII to house altar boys who serve Mass in St. Peter's and are thinking of becoming priests. They live in a building in the Vatican while attending schools outside its walls in Rome.
I thought wow, how naive are these families??? Do they even read the news??? The effects of sexual trauma are tremendous …and don’t even get me started in God’s role in all of this… it makes me sick, angry, and frankly glad I left. What is the obsession with sex… of bodily pleasure? I JUST DON’T GET IT. So disordered. Thank you, Steve… you nailed the three reasons. Devout conservative trad Catholics will continue to be victims until they wake up in the 21st century! Ughhh I’m just disgusted.
I feel like true depravity is always the marriage of sexuality and ideology. One one hand you have sexual desire the oldest, most primal and most base of human desires (arguably stronger than the survival instinct).
On the hand you have an ideology/religion operating at the level of abstraction. So the religious fundamentalist never develops a healthy balance between sexual desire and various ideas about the world. You see similar issues with the rise of "poly" throuples and their various branches, which is a kind of communist sexual cult. Its super easy to drop the proverbial mentos into the coke bottle and watch the fireworks when you mix the two.
Sanity will likely be found in the balance. Find a spouse, love them and have some fun in the sack.
Definitely a question worth pondering. To your 3 points (the dearth of leadership strikes me as especially relevant), I would just add a potential 4th, that being: Recent decades have seen so many false charges leveled against figures on the right, that a rush to delegitimize potential warning signs is practically ingrained into us at this point.
You mentioned Trump, who stands as a prime example of this. Amid legitimate concerns, we also got a host of fabricated ones, such that beleaguered conservatives begin to instinctively assume that leftist tactics must be behind any supposedly serious issues.
We’ve seen it in the Church, as alongside the legitimate sexual abuse scandals, a flood of frivolous lawsuits were also launched - several good priests defamed by those who smelled blood in the water following the Church’s big payouts.
It’s hard not to circle the wagons when arrows start flying, even if a few foes are liable to be included in the circle.
Interesting, Steve. You have significant insights from your previous work, and I remember the polemics between 1P5 and CM back in the day. I hopped on the Voris train early, way back in 2008 or 2009 when he started as "RealCatholictv." I was as naive about him as I was the Church. He stampeded out on the social media stage revealing the corruption in the Church. I thought, "Wow, this is great. It's nasty business, but someone must do it. Hurray for Michael; he has the courage to stand up to these evils!" I even sent one of his videos to my parish priest, saying, "Look at this! We need to address this!"
However, even before Francis, I had stopped listening. Something felt wrong with their message, their organization, and online persona. Over the years, I felt that they were becoming singularly obsessed with the gay agenda. I was not able to put my finger on it, but something seemed out of sync. CM did not feel right intuitively, even though they had occasionally put out some pretty solid Catholic material. I'm sorry for everyone involved, especially those victimized.
Steve, this was one of the best things you've written. I liked the article so much I re-subscribed. First of all, I am not over the shock of Michael Voris's fall. I would have said "not going to happen." He is an incredibly gifted (and holy, but with a tragic flaw) man who obviously had some rough things happen in his growing up. I am very concerned about him and all the staff at Church Militant, including the 8 or 9 who were "escorted out" and seem to be led by Dave Gordon. The "Unjust Militant" crowd seem to feel that there should be no possibility of a re-emergence by Voris back in "CM." I find this topic (is there redemption or possibility of re-institution after a fall of this magnitude) particularly perplexing. So I'm still pondering that issue--I see what Dave Gordon is saying, but I also believe in redemption and renewal and forgiveness. This is what the entire RCC was facing and is still facing with sexually active priests. Can they STOP and be re-habilitated? If there are minors involved, I'd say that priest needs to leave and find another way to serve God. But to the best of my knowledge, there WEREN'T minors in MV case.
So, it doesn't involve minors. But can the level of hypocrisy and damage and scandal be so great one has to withdraw from the public eye? Well, the closest case I can think of is Father John Corapi, who, according to Jesse Romero, who knows someone in S.O.L.T, is returned to the fold and is silent and leading a monk-like existence, and intends never to make another public statement. Is that right for Voris? Ah, again, MV isn't clergy. So, I am just giving this whole thing to God. I find advising MV at this point above my pay grade (cannot figure it out!), but God can figure it out, and I'm sure He has a plan for MV that is for his greatest and highest good. I am praying hard for both MV, the remaining staff of CM, and for those who left CM ("Unjust Militant") and for Christine Niles.
"3) Many human beings lose all capacity for discernment when encountering someone online. They lose the kind of sense they get when dealing with someone face to face."
This is about the only thing I would disagree with. Why? Because I know too many people who have told me how difficult face to face discernment has been for them. Look too, at the Somers CT cult: no online encounters there, it was prior to 1986. Yes, online connections don't help this, but it is really an age-old problem.
I don't know where you are in thinking about Catholic sexual teaching, but another part of this I think is just Catholics twisting themselves into pretzels to deny that some people are just really, actually gay and they just can't magic themselves out of that condition. I don't mean to say that Catholics need to agree with or encourage people to be actively homosexual, but I have seen multiple instances where Catholics wish so hard for people to be able to stop being gay or to become ex-gay or whatever, that they tout these stories of conversion or return that, from an outside perspective, are extremely fishy. I am coming from a comparatively conservative Catholic background and of the 6 (that I know of) people that I met from the same background (across high school and college) who turned out to be gay, only one is successfully living according to Church teaching. That's an 83% failure rate among well-catechized young adults on what is supposed to be a universal teaching. The others went through varying levels of self-flagellation and mental gymnastics to be ex-gay or openly gay but never in a relationship, and at varying points either left the faith wholesale or became 'cafeteria' Catholics- so that they could have relationships, hopes for any kind of family (it was that or be single forever or do religious life, where you are viewed as a liability if you are gay), etc. I don't endorse surrogacy or all that stuff but my point is just that, to be honest, I just haven't seen Church teaching on this issue work out for the majority of the people I know who are affected by this. Again, small sample size and I am only in my late 20s, but when I see people like Michael Voris, I think of young Catholics I have known who try super hard to deny their sexual orientation or be gay and find any kind of livable, exciting, fulfilling life within the Catholic Church - and that becomes a weird psychological alienation in itself that easily leads to a double life. This is not to say I have really any great pity for Voris, who i think capitalized on scandal and justly deserves the criticism he has received. Nor am I saying Church teaching is impossible, or that chastity is bad, but simply that I am reflecting on my own observation that somewhere along the line this particular teaching doesn't seem to be leading to much observable human flourishing. Like you can't both treat homosexuality as a radioactive disease and also expect gay Catholics to be super well adjusted. Again, all my opinion, and I welcome others' thoughts.
This article is very accurate in its assessment of conservative Catholic circles: we get duped easily by "strong men." It got me thinking about all of the voices in the Catholic world that I used to hang on every word, every day for years. Keep in mind, I'm not saying these people or channels are evil or corrupt, but I've become much more weary of stuff like this. Here is a list of what seems like another lifetime to me: Church Militant, Sensus Fidelium, The Remnant, Taylor Marshall (your fave), Trad Cat Knight, Fatima Center, Dimond Brothers (sedevacantists, I know), Fr. Ripperger, E. Michael Jones, and What Catholics Believe with Fr. Jenkins I think was his name. I'm sure I've left some out, but you get the point. I had to walk away from that stuff, it was too fear based, too angry and negative. It had the same vibes of the fundamentalists Christians that used to (and still) badger me with blood moons and rapture talk. Enough is enough.
Great reporting, I think your 3 points on why Catholics keep falling for con men is spot on
What the holy hell? The Pause Program??? Wake up people!!! When I learned of the Vatican residence for young boys serving the mass:
The St. Pius X Pre-seminary was founded by in 1956 by Pope Pius XII to house altar boys who serve Mass in St. Peter's and are thinking of becoming priests. They live in a building in the Vatican while attending schools outside its walls in Rome.
I thought wow, how naive are these families??? Do they even read the news??? The effects of sexual trauma are tremendous …and don’t even get me started in God’s role in all of this… it makes me sick, angry, and frankly glad I left. What is the obsession with sex… of bodily pleasure? I JUST DON’T GET IT. So disordered. Thank you, Steve… you nailed the three reasons. Devout conservative trad Catholics will continue to be victims until they wake up in the 21st century! Ughhh I’m just disgusted.
I feel like true depravity is always the marriage of sexuality and ideology. One one hand you have sexual desire the oldest, most primal and most base of human desires (arguably stronger than the survival instinct).
On the hand you have an ideology/religion operating at the level of abstraction. So the religious fundamentalist never develops a healthy balance between sexual desire and various ideas about the world. You see similar issues with the rise of "poly" throuples and their various branches, which is a kind of communist sexual cult. Its super easy to drop the proverbial mentos into the coke bottle and watch the fireworks when you mix the two.
Sanity will likely be found in the balance. Find a spouse, love them and have some fun in the sack.
Definitely a question worth pondering. To your 3 points (the dearth of leadership strikes me as especially relevant), I would just add a potential 4th, that being: Recent decades have seen so many false charges leveled against figures on the right, that a rush to delegitimize potential warning signs is practically ingrained into us at this point.
You mentioned Trump, who stands as a prime example of this. Amid legitimate concerns, we also got a host of fabricated ones, such that beleaguered conservatives begin to instinctively assume that leftist tactics must be behind any supposedly serious issues.
We’ve seen it in the Church, as alongside the legitimate sexual abuse scandals, a flood of frivolous lawsuits were also launched - several good priests defamed by those who smelled blood in the water following the Church’s big payouts.
It’s hard not to circle the wagons when arrows start flying, even if a few foes are liable to be included in the circle.
Interesting, Steve. You have significant insights from your previous work, and I remember the polemics between 1P5 and CM back in the day. I hopped on the Voris train early, way back in 2008 or 2009 when he started as "RealCatholictv." I was as naive about him as I was the Church. He stampeded out on the social media stage revealing the corruption in the Church. I thought, "Wow, this is great. It's nasty business, but someone must do it. Hurray for Michael; he has the courage to stand up to these evils!" I even sent one of his videos to my parish priest, saying, "Look at this! We need to address this!"
However, even before Francis, I had stopped listening. Something felt wrong with their message, their organization, and online persona. Over the years, I felt that they were becoming singularly obsessed with the gay agenda. I was not able to put my finger on it, but something seemed out of sync. CM did not feel right intuitively, even though they had occasionally put out some pretty solid Catholic material. I'm sorry for everyone involved, especially those victimized.
Steve, this was one of the best things you've written. I liked the article so much I re-subscribed. First of all, I am not over the shock of Michael Voris's fall. I would have said "not going to happen." He is an incredibly gifted (and holy, but with a tragic flaw) man who obviously had some rough things happen in his growing up. I am very concerned about him and all the staff at Church Militant, including the 8 or 9 who were "escorted out" and seem to be led by Dave Gordon. The "Unjust Militant" crowd seem to feel that there should be no possibility of a re-emergence by Voris back in "CM." I find this topic (is there redemption or possibility of re-institution after a fall of this magnitude) particularly perplexing. So I'm still pondering that issue--I see what Dave Gordon is saying, but I also believe in redemption and renewal and forgiveness. This is what the entire RCC was facing and is still facing with sexually active priests. Can they STOP and be re-habilitated? If there are minors involved, I'd say that priest needs to leave and find another way to serve God. But to the best of my knowledge, there WEREN'T minors in MV case.
So, it doesn't involve minors. But can the level of hypocrisy and damage and scandal be so great one has to withdraw from the public eye? Well, the closest case I can think of is Father John Corapi, who, according to Jesse Romero, who knows someone in S.O.L.T, is returned to the fold and is silent and leading a monk-like existence, and intends never to make another public statement. Is that right for Voris? Ah, again, MV isn't clergy. So, I am just giving this whole thing to God. I find advising MV at this point above my pay grade (cannot figure it out!), but God can figure it out, and I'm sure He has a plan for MV that is for his greatest and highest good. I am praying hard for both MV, the remaining staff of CM, and for those who left CM ("Unjust Militant") and for Christine Niles.
"3) Many human beings lose all capacity for discernment when encountering someone online. They lose the kind of sense they get when dealing with someone face to face."
This is about the only thing I would disagree with. Why? Because I know too many people who have told me how difficult face to face discernment has been for them. Look too, at the Somers CT cult: no online encounters there, it was prior to 1986. Yes, online connections don't help this, but it is really an age-old problem.